Comments on: Editorial: Singular Voices http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/ Mon, 14 Mar 2016 18:51:53 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.4.2 By: Ethos http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/#comment-90719 Sun, 03 May 2015 18:07:27 +0000 http://lusipurr.com/?p=12797#comment-90719 That’s an interesting interpretation of my position. I think it’s far too premature to write the concluding paragraph on the form of games. I agree especially about your examples of Final Fantasy. I’ve been thinking about that series a lot recently before this conversation and I agree that those games are not particularly artful as complete works (if at all, actually), and fit what you are describing perfectly. However, this is where I believe it’s too early to apply this to gaming as a form as a whole which is incredibly young and has used imitation of other forms heavily in its slow and blind groping to find its own form. But just because the examples of artful game design are primitive and very few does not mean in my mind that games need some final explanation in this moment that dismiss their potential and pure form as art (though not all games, not all film, not all music, etc). All art forms include the mechanical and all art forms include interaction, albeit not in such a literal form like it is with games.

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By: Lusipurr http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/#comment-90717 Sat, 02 May 2015 22:31:05 +0000 http://lusipurr.com/?p=12797#comment-90717 “I think there is a short-sightedness and need for immediate categorization and explanation that is inherently dismissive about your conclusion.”

When the abstract rules themselves on a list of rules are art, then and only then will games be art. You may continue to implicitly vaunt art above games by claiming categorical symmetry, but you are doing no service to games or art, and are only perpetuating the (quite wrong) belief that art is superior to games, hence the need to justify the latter by insisting it is the former.

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By: Ethos http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/#comment-90713 Sat, 02 May 2015 17:29:44 +0000 http://lusipurr.com/?p=12797#comment-90713 @Lusi – Hrm, I remain unconvinced. All your argument tells me is that there is no suitable academic description for games as art which is something I believed already. Not that I even disagree with most of what you said – I don’t – but I think there is a short-sightedness and need for immediate categorization and explanation that is inherently dismissive about your conclusion.

@Bek – I also like focus on the celebration of the team as a whole, although I think that is a different (albeit related) conversation. Few single people could make an entire game, and I think the best multi-person creative projects have a need for the director to encourage and include other artistic influences from the team, but regardless of public perception and reaction, I think games tend to have greater artistic value when they are ultimately reflective of a single person’s vision. A Sibelius symphony could not be played without the incredible talent and dedication of the instrumentalists, the conductor, and the many people who make the instruments and organize the space and the payments and all the other jobs nobody ever thinks about, but ultimately the symphony is an expression of something out of Sibelius and that vision is at the centre and all other work is best served pursuing that vision.

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By: Lusipurr http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/#comment-90703 Fri, 01 May 2015 03:59:59 +0000 http://lusipurr.com/?p=12797#comment-90703 Sigh. Here we go again. Stop equating games with art! You are doing a disservice to both! Stop stop stop!

No game, taken as a whole, is art. A game may have individual aspects which are artistic. There are areas in the lovingly built pixellated world of Final Fantasy VI that are certainly art; the music of Final Fantasy IX is art; the narrative and dialogue in Final Fantasy XII is art. There are some games which are chock-full of art. But, the games where these things are found are not, themselves, taken in whole, art. They are games. And despite bizarre, wrong-headed morons thinking otherwise, the one is not somehow better than the other. Art is not better than Games; Games are not better than Art. They are simply categorically different things. (I just got through that whole paragraph without mentioning Final Fantasy VII. Until now.)

Games are far more like Sport than they are like a painting, a novel, or a symphony, because their nature is wholly grounded in the systemic, and their whole ludic narrative (not the same thing as the narrative of dialogue and story action) is generated purely (and often individually) through user interaction. Again, this does not mean that they cannot have artistic aspects. There are aspects of Cricket which are, for example, artistic: a ground may be beautiful, a particular stroke by an excellent batsman may have a classical aspect; there can be symmetry to the field placements which are aesthetically pleasing–but these are aspects, not the whole ‘Sport’ itself. The whole does not become art simply because it possesses aspects which are artistic, in the same way a house does not become art by virtue of having paintings inside of it, or a person becoming art by memorising a great many poems, or an evening with the wife become art by taking in a Symphony as part of it: and yet, no one would dispute the value of such a house, such a person, or such an evening.

(This is not to say that Games are Sport (they’re not; Games are Games, and I am being reductive about the differences for the purpose of the analogy); but rather to point out that they exist in a different category of thing than Art properly considered.)

So it turns out that Roger Ebert was right after all, God rest his little soul, but he was right for the wrong reasons. He held up art as somehow ‘more’ than games, which he perceived as uniformly Pac-Man-like. Instead, Games are just as valuable as Art, for some of the same reasons that Art is valuable, and for some different reasons to which Art itself can never aspire. We need both! But we also need to stop conflating them, because so to do creates a false hierarchy which diminishes both even as it confuses both.

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By: Bek http://lusipurr.com/2015/04/29/editorial-singular-voices/#comment-90698 Thu, 30 Apr 2015 19:55:48 +0000 http://lusipurr.com/?p=12797#comment-90698 As with most things, I think it’s largely contextual. Some game leaders are better at using their managerial skills to project a vision onto a team of people and get them motivated toward achieving that vision together. Others use the group itself to help create and execute the vision. I’m not sure one or the other or even other alternatives are better or worse equipped to put out a good game.

I personally like the, for lack of a better term, precedent in the gaming industry that gives recognition to a studio for a good title as opposed to the way most other media distribute their praise. In films and television, the focus is typically on a few key players, mainly the on-screen cast and the director, sometimes a producer or composer. These people should be recognized, because they’re typically the most visible in any given production. But I like the way gaming doesn’t necessarily focus on a few key players and instead praises the entity as a whole, because that doesn’t, whether people do it intentionally or not, diminish the effort that every single member of the team put forth.

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